Okay, this is a question my son has asked me before. I think I know the answer, or at least one that satisifes me, but I'd like to know what y'all think.
Christianity claims that God knows everything. If God knows everything, then He knows that some people whom He creates will end up in hell. Why would God create people who are destined for hell?
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This post, for its brevity, oversimplifies the notiosn of God's sovereignty and our own free will, starting with "Christanity claims that God knows everything."
It depends on what yer definition of "knows" is! :-)
To wit, a note on "open theism," which is one of countless Christian ways to perceive God's knowledge:
"Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is able to be influenced through prayer, decisions, and actions of people. Although unknowing of the future, God has predictive (anticipatory) foreknowledge of the future through his intimate knowledge of each individual. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions."
All of which underlies the very notuion that "God answers prayer," which, actually, is debatable even within a Christian context.
Fore more, look up "open theism" on Wikipedia, and "process theology," too.
All of which is details, and fund to think about,. Bottom lines: Either God IS love, and God is willing that none should perish mean something, or God is a capricious God, a monster, and we're all doomed.
I'm trusting that God loves us -- or he'da done wiped us off rhe place of the planet for our sheer hubris, rainbows notwithstanding.
You just keep this up, and I'm gonna wind up in seminary. :-)
Is the boy reading this blog? Or is this an exercise for you to get ideas to talk about with him?
Both, in response to your second post. He reads it and then wants to discuss it with me. I keep telling him to just leave a comment, but I think he's a little shy. If I can just get him started, we won't be able to shut him up. Trust me.
Response to your first post will have to wait. I'm running late for work!
Seeker
God didn't create us to go to hell, but rather to go to heaven. There cannot be a heaven without a hell. There must be oposition in all things. We must have free choice. That is the only way we can prove ourselves to God, which is why we are here in the first place. The decision is entirely in our hands, whether we go to heaven or hell. We can't blame Him. He provided the way there, we must choose to follow it. "...strait is the gate, and narrow the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14
There are more answers to that question, but I won't give them here.
ER, I can't quite buy the open theism argument, simply because I do think God knows everything. The Bible is full of fulfilled prophecy and it's got to be more than just guess work behind it.
I'm having a little trouble with your bottom line, too. Yeah, I think God loves us, but I also think he is a perfect judge, so righteous we can't even look on him in our corrupted state. Sin isn't going to go unpunished; and, according to the Bible a lot of people are going to be doomed. Not because God willed it, in fact, he took our punishment on himself, but because He didn't force that gift of life on us. We have to be willing to acknowledge him and take it.
I don't know if we'll ever fully comprehend the nature of God while we're on earth. I think the original question probably was a little simplistic; I wish I had an answer that was simplistic, too!
I think seminary would be an ideal place for you!
Hi,Etc.
Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment. I hope you'll come by often.
I do have a question or two for you, though. If God created us to go to heaven why is it that, "..few there be that find it.."? Isn't that kind of like saying God's plan for us failed?
And why doesn't the Old Testament talk about hell more? The idea for hell really seems to take off in the New Testament, but there's not much about it in the Old Testament and even the leaders of the OT, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, couldn't agree on it.
Where does the Bible claim that God knows everything? I'm curious as to what verses support that. That would be a good project: To see that the Bible actually says about God's omniscience.
A better question to ask is why would God create people who could only worship Him. We have a name for beings who have no choices and can only serve their master-- we call them slaves.
God choose to take the chance that some of His children would reject Him. He does not rejoice that any go to hell. That's not what He wants, but for people to have a choice, there have to be alternatives.
Of course, let's be honest. He stacked the deck in His favor. On one side, you have eternal life and joy; on the other, eternal suffering. He sends prophets. He sends angels. He inspired a thousand different denominations so that His silly bickering children could find a place to fit in. He does everything He can to influence us to choose Him. How can we resist His advances?
Of course, people do. This question on how supposedly sane people can reject God has perplexed scholars for ages. Many medieval theologians placed the blame firmly on Satan and his demons. An entire demonic hierarchy was created -- with little Scriptural basis -- to blame sin on.
Far be it from me to dispute Satan's influence on the world -- although I think he spends most of his time on TV, movies and politics these days -- but the Bible makes it clear that we can't abdicate our responsibility for our souls. In other words, "The devil made me do it" isn't valid.
Then what does make people choose destruction? Let's borrow from a bit of popular culture: "With great power comes great responsibility." God gave each of us great gifts. We can use those gifts for evil or for good. And evil is attractive. It offers immediate fulfillment. It offers immediate pleasure. Evil promises everything. It promises that we can be selfish, vain, immoral, arrogant, self-righteous, foolish, dishonest and murderous, and still be happy. It's a piece of sweet, sweet candy with a poison core. And unfortunately some people are unwise and immature and abdicate their responsibility to their gifts. Like a glutton in a candy store, they gorge themselves on this world, laying waste to everything and everyone about them. They don't end up happy, and they don't live happy lives. History is littered with fallen heroes. Or simply read the latest gossip from Hollywood about people who have all the world can offer -- beauty, fame, money, sex, -- and their lives are a wreck. The tragedy will always be that they could have chosen differently.
It's a hard choice for God. He is a parent who fiercely loves His children. He is doing everything He can to save them and still give them the choice to love Him freely. But what should He do about the ones who refuse? The ones who spitefully and childishly reject Him? Should He deny them their choice? They choose destruction despite all He does for them. Should He finally make them His slaves? No, in the end, He gives them what they chose. And if they choose Hell, then that is what they will receive.
Um, Re: "There must be oposition in all things."
This is a very human idea. Which is why false dichotomies are rampant.
"We must have free choice. That is the only way we can prove urselves to God, which is why we are here in the first place."
I dare say this flies in the face of the whole purpose of the Cross. If we could prove ourselves to God, we wouldn't need, like, a savior.
Re, "I can't quite buy the open theism argument, simply because I do think God knows everything."
I don't open theism says otherwise.
Re, "The Bible is full of fulfilled prophecy and it's got to be more than just guess work behind it."
Well, that is the way most people look at the Bible. Some Christians, however, see it more as inspired writers looking back to other inspired writers to find evidence to support their understanding of their own encounter with the Divine, who we call "God." If God had revealed himself in Jesus to a people other than the Jews, would Jeses have been interpreted as the promised Messiah? Probably not. Jesus would have been seen as The Way to God, but it took Jews, literally, to see Jesus as the Sacrificial Lamb -- since they were in the habit of sacrificing lambs.
etc's comment shows the smallness of most fundamentalist thought. It seems to me an argument for hell can be made, but it goes like this:
God's love is so abounding that it even encompasses those who actively reject Divine Grace. For those who would, in the word's of Milton's Satan, rather rule in hell than serve in heaven, hell is a present option. God's grief accompanies them there, as Psalm 139 reminds us, because even hell's fires are watered by the tears of God weeping for those so lost they do not wish to be found.
BTW, was sent here via ER's blog. I hope to return again. And again.
I answered my own question, by the way, about hell being mentioned in the Old Testament. When you're reading books by people who arguing against the need for religion and who try to keep pointing out flaws and contradictions in the Bible, you really need to stay on your toes and check your facts. A book I'm reading made the claim hell isn't mentioned that often in the OT, but it actually is and it's quite graphic. It would be interesting -- to me anyway -- to find the argument some Jewish sects have against there being a hell.
I really appreciate the well-thought out answers, too. :)
Hi Geoffrey,
Thanks for leaving a comment. I hope you'll come back again and again, too. :)
It's hard for me to believe people would choose hell, even if they get to "rule" there, but I've never been quite comfortable with scaring people into heaven with the concept of hell. I'd rather draw people's attention to the incredible love God has for us. Yet, you have to talk about hell so you know what God is saving you from.
Which gives me an idea for another topic...
Allow me to introduce everyone - and, Crystal-Seeker, if this is TMI, feel free to delete it.
Crystal and I went together -- lovely, now antiquated phrase! -- back in the day. For several years. I love her still -- as a sister in the Lord, as well as the hot mama I knew back then. :-) I haven't laid eyes on her since 1996. We are from the same town.
Tech and I, too, went to the same high school. But he was two or three grades above me. I knew OF him, and would have had a conservation with him -- and did. We became closer acquaintances in college; I think we were both at Oklahoma State for one semester, maybe two. He was the only person I knew from our hometown when I arrived, and was a blessing to me then in ways I can't express well. But we became real friends, I think, online, starting, like, in 2003 or 2004. I don't think I've laid eyes on him since 1987.
Geoff has become such a dear friend of mine, my big ol' redneck eyes are starting to leak just thinking about it. He became my friend when my sweet Mama ER was ill, and he stuck to me like a brother throughout that ordeal. I love him for it. We've never met.
Crystal, Tech, Geoff, me! -- we all are brothers and sisters in Christ. We don't always, or even often, agree on the details. Sometimes we get snarky with one another. But we each love God, and we know God loves each of us, and one another, and we respect one another.
God bless the Internet.
hey tech ddid you notice gregory was snarky to your roomie? another shining example of christain brotherhood :)
This is probably simplistic, but then, if it were complicated, some people could never understand, and thus, could never be saved.
I believe (although I can't point to chapter and verse) God does test us, but not so He can find out what our particular strengths and weaknesses are, but rather so we can know our own strengths and weaknesses. He already knows, we don't.
About creating people He knows in advance will go to Hell: That's a good question. I don't know, but I can surmise, and I tend to think perhaps God needs to create people who are on the road to Hell so the people who can be saved can see what condemns them and learn to choose the right path. I believe all of us have a purpose in God's master plan. Perhaps sometimes ones purpose is to be the example of Evil, if it accomplishes some greater purpose for one or more of "the called". Look at Judas Iscariot. He had a nefarious purpose, but without his betrayal of Jesus, there would not have been the shedding of blood, which is necessary for the remission of our sins. Judas did an unthinkable thing, but nevertheless, he fulfilled his and God's purpose.
I would also point out that God, being God, doesn't need to use anyone or anything to accomplish anything. With a word, He can un-create (is that a word?)the Universe, and with a word, He can re-create it again. He prefers to use people and circumstances to do His work for Him. Why? I don't know. One day we can ask Him.
I agree with ER that we don't necessarily need opposites to understand the difference between one thing or the other, but when we see people who reject Jesus, and see what that choice brings them, perhaps it is the only motivation for us to strive to do the things that God commands. And perhaps that is their purpose.
I certainly hope I'm wrong about that, but I am the first to admit I don't know the mind of God.
Hell, well it is mostly an invention of man over time. There are many histories available about the origins of "hell". If it or something like it exist if has to be that which is existant outside the Kingdom of Heaven. It is a place where God is not, a place where God's Grace does not extend. Can there be such a place?
The dichotomy between an all knowing God and a God that permits free-will has plagued Theology forever, and always will unless of course your preferred beliefs fall totally on one side of the dichotomy or the other.
My favorite image of hell comes from pre-Bibical Egypt where the "heart" of the dead is wieghed in the balances against the a feather that represents the goodness and justice of Maat, the Goddess over everthing. In this hall of judgement if your heart is light you enter into life after death. If it is heavier than the feather, then your soul is forfited and consumed by Amut who has the body of hippo, the fore limbs of a Lion, and the head of a Croc. Amut is the soul eater, waiting just next to the scales. He eats you and you are lost to oblivion.
Thank you, Slim. Since I can't – apparently you believe -- read, I hadn't noticed Gregory's comment until you so graciously pointed it out ... ;)
I realize that you take glee from seeing Christians argue, Slim. You really enjoyed ER and Pastor Tim's recent tangle. Perhaps too much.
So let me remind you that you also come from the same town that ER, Crystal and I do. You attended the same high school that Crystal, ER and I did, admittedly 26 years after Crystal and I graduated. And while you currently have chosen to reject anything associated with that town -- which includes the church in which both you and I were raised and which your family and mine still attend -- you might someday possibly wish to cross back over those bridges that you keep attempting to burn.
It might be wiser to be more tolerant of other people's foibles. In other words, stop being a brat. :) And no, I'm not angry with you. Yes, we're still friends. I'm just a bit irritated, maybe more that my fellow Christians keep giving you ammo than the fact you can't resist an easy target. And you should resist because, for all their faults, my fellow Christians are -- for the most part -- attempting to grow into better people. That is something to be encouraged.
As for Gregory's comment, my roomie –- who also knows Crystal, just to continue the TMI mode –- can reply as he chooses. However, I suspect he won't. He doesn't like arguing or rudeness and thinks it's unseemly and ungodly to indulge in such. I will regret that since I was the one who asked him to comment here. He is the president of a branch -- soon to be a ward -- of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I had hoped he would share his theology on this blog since Crystal had told me that she wanted as many viewpoints as possible. I had told Crystal on the phone tonight that I was encouraging him to do so. Unfortunately, for some people, sharing means arguing and impoliteness, and that is unpleasant for many people. I will say this also about him: I've seen him give thousands of hours to help people less fortunate and give generously at great sacrifice to many local and national charities. He's one of the finest people I know, and anyone who carelessly disregards his beliefs loses my respect and my attention immediately.
Re: "etc's comment shows the smallness of most fundamentalist thought." I don't think quoting the Savior is fundamentalist, and I don't consider myself fundamentalist. But what do I know? I wasn't sure by Geoff's response if he did or didn't believe in hell. I think my beliefs about heaven and hell and who would go there might surprise you.
Perhaps this will help: "This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" Moses 1:39. Also, Doctrine and Covenants 14:7 "If you keep my commandments and endure to the end, you shall have enternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God." I think Tech answered this very well in his response.
Re: "I dare say this flies in the face of the whole purpose of the Cross. If we could prove ourselves to God, we wouldn't need, like, a savior." So everyone will be saved by His atonement? If not, what qualifies one for salvation? Paul taught that faith without works is dead. If how we live our lives doesn't matter, why do we have commandments like "Love thy neighbor as thy self" Mark 12:31 or "That ye love one another, as I have loved you." John 15:12? "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Revalations 3: 15-16.
"And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;" Abraham 3:25
My advice to Seeker:
The only way to know the truth is through the Holy Ghost, and that comes through reading the word and through personal prayer.
"4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Moroni 10:4-5
Moroni?
Abraham?
Is that from the Bible? I mean, it's fine with me if we bring in other sources. But ...
Moses?
Doctrine and Covenants?
Do what?
Wow, looks like y'all were busy while I was at work tonight! First of all, I want to say hi and thanks for stopping by to Dr.Lobo, Slim and Mark, and I hope you come back again.
Re,Tech: "Where does the Bible claim that God knows everything?"
I don't have a specific verse that says, "God knows everything" but if you believe He created everything, raises prophets who can predict the future, and knows even the number of hairs on our head and knew us while we were still in the womb, I think it's a safe assumption.
Re,ER: "I haven't laid eyes on her since 1996."
Really? Has it been that long? Geez!
RE,Slim: "another shining example of christain brotherhood :)"
You know, Slim, I really am interested in knowing what you think, too, about the questions we're discussing here. I hardly expect everyone to agree with each other here and it would be a pretty boring blog if we did. Since Tech mentioned your families attended the same church, I have some idea of what your background is, but what are your thoughts now? Do you regret the time spent in church or do you find what you learned there still helps you now?
ER, I believe ETC is quoting from the Book of Mormon. I think he is anyway, but I've never read it, so I can't say that with 100% certainy. And if he is, that's very cool because the more diversity there is on this board the richer we'll all be for it.
Re,ETC: "5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." Moroni 10:4-5"
Okay, I know what your saying here, ETC, and I agree with it and yet...is this verse saying you have to have faith before you get understanding? That's really hard for someone who is a skeptic to grasp. They want understanding first and then faith will follow, hopefully. How would you respond to someone who wants understanding first?
And I think how we live our lives definitely matters and Jesus had some definite ideas about that, but our works aren't what get us into heaven. If doing good deeds and loving our neighbor was all we had to do, then why would Jesus have had to die on the Cross?
Or am I putting words in your mouth, and you weren't really saying good works was all we had to do?
Re, Dr.Lobo: "My favorite image of hell..."
Okay, just that line alone is a little disturbing. :) Seriously, though, what did an Egyptian have to do to get a light heart? Are we looking at works again to get us into heaven?
Re, Mark: "..perhaps God needs to create people who are on the road to Hell so the people who can be saved can see what condemns them and learn to choose the right path."
Oh, man, I hope not! I mean, seriously, couldn't God just as easily create righteous people to help us find Him? I think it's possible we can learn from the mistakes of others, of course, but I'd hate to think someone was created to go to hell, just so I could go to heaven.
Tech i meant no despect to u or ur roomie. Ur both cool. Its funny when christains fight cause they say there full of god but they dont even like each other & send each other to hell. It proves what i said being christain isnt what makes u a good person. U would be a good person even if u werent christain. Texting this on cell so sorry for misstakes.
Seeker said; "Re, Dr.Lobo: "My favorite image of hell..."
Okay, just that line alone is a little disturbing. :) Seriously, though, what did an Egyptian have to do to get a light heart? Are we looking at works again to get us into heaven?"
As for the light heart, works? Yes, but not alone. Works were considered a reflection of the quailty of the soul. Many Calvinist subscribe to that to some extent even today. Interestingly some "Books of the Dead" when they depict the judgement hall have Anubis (the god in charge of the Dead) with his finger on the scale with the feather holding it level. That is a image metaphor for "Grace".
In practice reading the "Books of the Dead" and all the effort it take to get to "heaven" reminds me greatly of Bunyan's "Pilgrams Progress". As Bush would say, "It is hard work, it's hard!"
As for my "favorite image of hell", please know that there are hundreds of variations on what just the Christian Hell will be. Many more for "the bad place" of other religions. The latter Egyptian version seems to have an artistic wholeness to it. In this case it is not a matter of belief but visual ascetics.
Speaking of the "Book of the Dead" brings us to the "Pearl of Great Price" and the books of "Moses" and "Abraham" which were translated directly from papyrus scrolls containing variations of Egyptian books of the Dead and the circular prayer "thingy" that went under the mummies head, by Joseph Smith the founder of the LDS. The complete translation was cut short by his untimely murder.
I will not act as an authoritive expert on LDS theology, but from what I have read from the official LDS study guides where their "Presidents" of the Church received revelations and shared such with the believers, that Hell is a temporary state of being and a place that after those consigned there serve enough time they will be brought forth and become part of the after worlds. Therefore God does not condemn people to eternal punishment but to a kind of longterm "unpleasant re-evaluation process" (my term not the LDS"s).
This is not unlike the special knowledge given in the book of Enoch which was not accepted by the Orthodx Pualian Roman Church in the early centuries as a canonical book. (Interestingly Joseph Smith could not have know even of the existance of the Book of Enoch.)
Slim, no problem. But you are wrong on one thing: it is my Christianity that keeps me from being a monster. A long time ago, I wasn't a good person. I did terrible things to people, but because God protected me, I didn't go to jail or end up dead. It is inappropriate to discuss that time of my life because it can sound like boasting, and it is nothing to be proud of. I understand too well the glory and attraction of evil and would be lying if I didn't say that a part of me missed those days and probably always will, although it gets easier as the years go past. But God, in His mercy, loved me even when I was unlovable and rescued me from myself. I can never forget the joy of feeling His love surround me and give me the assurance of life after death and going finally home. If it seems sometimes that I push you toward church, it is simply that I want you to experience the joy and comfort that God gives me when I'm not too dense to accept it. That does not mean that my life is perfect or that I am perfect -- far from it in fact since I still experience impulses and shamefully enjoy revenge on my enemies -- but it does meant that God is helping me grow and be better. And while we don't have to justify ourselves to God -- because we never can, being flawed creatures and unworthy of His righteousness -- we can still be good children and give Him accomplishments to be proud of. And if we love Him, we want Him to be proud of us. This is probably quite silly, but when I've done a hard thing, I like to imagine Jesus turning to the Father and saying, "Hey, look at that. He did good. That's our boy." I find that a great comfort.
tech stated: "...it is my Christianity that keeps me from being a monster."
I have found that a cocktail of pyschotropic medications works best in that regards for me.
I wish i had what you have tech but i dont and cant. I never felt like that at church. God doesnt exist for me. I wish he did.
Slim, aren't you in the Dallas area? If so, may I, as a member of a United Church of Christ church, invite you to the Cathedral of Hope, a mostly gay church (but all are welcome), which recently affiliated with the UCC.
Check it out:
www.cathedralofhope.com
Or call (800) 501-HOPE.
If you really meant this, "God doesnt exist for me. I wish he did," I PROMISE you that you have never been ijn a church like the Cathedral of Hope, and that you've never swam in Grace like I think you would there.
Redneck prayers aloft for Slim. That God slap him right upside his head to get his attention, then cradle him like a child. But you gotta look, dude. Wishing it were so don't cut it.
And for your own sake, quit looking at people if you want to find God. People suck. Really. I mean, if I wanted to meet President Bush (gah! only example I could think of!) I wouldn't go down to the local USDA office and complain that he wasn't there. I'd go to the White House. Same with God. Try to find God, asnd don't be swayed by us, his assistants! :-)
Well, Slim, you can, but you knew I'd say that. :) I know you're frustrated, but take a deep breath. It's going to work out. God will make a way to you. I believe it. And you've already taken a huge step toward Him just by wishing that He did exist for you. That hunger for God is the most important thing. Although it probably doesn't feel like it right now, it's actually a blessing. Just trust me on that.
I'm going to send you an email with some info and the name and phone of a good Christian friend I know in Dallas. He's closer to your age than me, and we've discussed you -- in only the most general terms so he doesn't know your name or your particular situation and he has no contact with our hometown -- before. He and his wife are some of the best people I know, and they love to talk about God with spiritually hungry people. And if you're not ready for that yet, that's okay, too. I can't push anyone to God -- or trust me, I would have already done so. :) It's your journey, and every truth you gain will be that much sweeter for being earned by you.
By the way, this is sort of off the topic of this post so let's continue talking in email and chat or call me because I'll be off work this afternoon.
Seeker,
Yes, I was quoting from the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants, all of which the LDS church accepts as Holy Scripture along with the King James version of the Bible. The Book of Moses was direct revelation to Joseph Smith, while Abraham was translated from papyrus as drlobojo pointed out.
My advice is to seek understanding by reading the Word of God. This opens our hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit who will help us develop faith. We begin by having a desire to know and to believe. We must put forth effort. "Knock and it shall be opened..."
As for works and grace, both are required. One is not sufficient without the other. "It is by grace we are saved, after all we can do" 2 Nephi 25:23. Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." It is only in and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that our sins can be forgiven and we enter His presence after death, but we must do all we are capable of in this life to qualify. Hope that answers your question.
Thus lies the difference between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism.
Do I understand this right? Grace comes after we have exhausted ourselves to prove that we're worthy of it? It continues if we continue proving ourselves?
Then it's not Grace at all. Salvation, then, is a payment for services rendered, not a gift. And the works that follow are to keep the paychecks coming, not the willing sharing with other humans of Grace received from God.
Faith without works is dead. No works, no faith. But one springs from the other. One does not work to keep one's faith, but can't help but work because of one's faith. (Old, old discussions, these.)
Sounds like the Pentecostals I grew up with. Sounds like an attempt to bargain with God. Sounds like we might as well be sacrificing lambs.
Based on what I've read and conversations with friends who are LDS members I'd say the LDS concept of "salvation" is fairly more complex than that. Remembering that the LDS church is operating on Revelations from God over and above those found in the Bible. Within that context even the words used by Biblical or Earlier Days Saints (That would be me and you ER)such as, Saint, Temple, Church, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Christian, Priesthood, Salvation, Heaven, Grace, Hell and so forth and so on have added dimensions and meanings to the LDS believer not known to us.
Thus we often talk right past one another because we think we share a totally common vocabulary that really isn't there.
Tech, yer gonna scare the boy off.
I want to know about the temple garments.
I retract my last. I found some info on Wikipedia, including this: "Adherents consider them to be sacred and may be offended by public discussion of the garments."
No offense intended.
Tech doesnt ever scare me. I apprecate him being my friend when a lot fo religious people wont be. & I know people from our hometown wouldnt be. Thanks tech.
Good! Cool. I kinda figured even as I typed that that y'all had been friends so long that Tech knew who he was talkin' to, but my fingers got away from my head. :-)
ETC, I'm glad you hung around and replied, it did answer a few questions. I even picked up a Book of Mormon at the library today, just so I could know better about where you're coming from on some of these issues. I couldn't find the Pearl of Great Price or Doctrine and Covenants, though. I'll keep looking.
I know this is probably going to make me sound shallow, but it's amazing to me anyway, how quickly I've dismissed other religions and belief systems without ever reading about them for myself.
When I challenged my son several years ago to read things for himself and to know WHY he believed what he believed, I was so confident or sure he would come to the same conclusions I had been given to me, that I never did the thing I told him to do. And, he did read everything he could get his hands on about different religions, atheism, cults, skeptics, etc. and unfortunately not only did he not come up with same conclusions I held dear, he challenges me on them on almost a daily basis. And I have some catching up to do in my reading and thinking things out.
Y'all have been great resources and topics of discussion for us and I hope all of you will keep participating. We're not going to agree all the time with each other but that's okay. I'm not trying to convert anyone here, just trying to pick your brain a little and maybe learn something for myself.
Oh, and Slim, if Tech doesn't scare you, you are a very, very brave man. ;) Actually, if Tech doesn't scare you no one else on this blog should either and I hope you keep hanging out around here. IMHO, there's a lot of good stuff coming out of these discussions.
ER quoted: "Adherents consider them to be sacred and may be offended by public discussion of the garments."
Well yes, they are after all what you wear in the presence of God.
But when you can pick up pictures of them on the web....then discussion should not be a problem.
Seeker, many of the authoratative documents you might want to see are on the web at the official LDS site : http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
However the history of dissonance between the LDS and the Gentiles has caused the LDS to be cautious in plainly revealing doctrine and process. So often a simple answer isn't really that simple but requires guidance in interpretation. Not to mention that we all are so steeped in our own "religious jargons" that we don't communicate all that well.
Okay, about the undergarments..it IS a sensitive topic, but then again, I think it would be even if there weren't religious connotations with it. I mean, sure you can find the kind of panties I wear at Walmart -- uh, I mean Victoria Secret -- but that doesn't mean I want to discuss them with strangers on a blog. Anyway, trust me on this one, it is a sensitive topic.
I have been over to their website but will try to spend a little more time over there. We may have scared etc off, which is a shame since it would have been nice to have someone who actually knew what the religion was about to talk to.
I originally stuck this in the wrong place, sorry.
Seeker, for LDS documents go to :
http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg
Click on "Prepare A Lesson" in the top right hand column , and you will have most of the major official LDS documents at your finger tips.
I guess I missed the Prepare A Lesson thing. Thanks, I will check that out.
Yep, the first place I sent you was their evangelical site. This site is for their own members use.
Not the different url.
For the LDS the subject of the their "Temples" and anything about them is mostly off limits for discussion with anyone outside the Church. Many members don't know where the line should be drawn on the subject so they won't discuss it at all. Yet the LDS publish information about the temples on the own. So it is a convoluted situation.
Can't help but wonder what will happen if Romney gets the nomination of the Republicans. Will he say, it is none of your business, tell half the truth but not all, or give real complete answers? Strike that last possibility. He is a politician, Mormon or not, complete real answers are not the politicians way.
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