My son asked me an interesting question about freewill today. And, no, it's probably not what you're thinking if you've entertained this notion before. We've already hashed, rehashed and refried the idea of whether or not humans have freewill. I argue that question on the side of the fence that says yes we do have it. For me, it's an big piece of the puzzle of why Adam and Eve, and us as well, are allowed to be tempted. My son argues that it's at least possible our choices are based so heavily on our experiences, environment, and upbringing that our decisions are made before we consciously make them.
But here was his question. Does God have freewill? My first reaction was, of course. He's God. He can decide to do whatever he wants. My son argued however that because God can only do what's right that automatically limits His options. Yes, God is all powerful, but you can't change his nature, he can only do what is wise and righteous. So the first part of his argument is that God's options are limited, in that respect, and secondly, because He's all-knowing and knows the future, He, also already knows what decision He is going to make now. In other words, since He can see the future, He knew he was going to create the earth and us, so He had no choice at a certain moment in time but to do it and get the ball rolling. MJC said it better and if I didn't explain it like he meant it, I'm sure he'll jump in here and correct me.
So, what do you think? Does God have freewill or is He locked into His decisions? Is there an instance in the Bible where God changed His mind? I already brought up Jonah and the people in Ninevah, who unlike the people in Sodom and Gomorrah, repented and turned away God's wrath. But, as MJC asked, was God really sitting there on pins and needles waiting for the people to repent because He didn't know the outcome, or did He know if He sent Jonah they would repent? God went to a lot of trouble to get Jonah there, so I would assume He knew they were going to repent if Jonah went. So, did God really change His mind?
I think there's more to freewill than the ability to change your mind, of course. It's more about being able to choose different options when they're presented to you. Because of MJC's first point, that God cannot perform an unrighteous act, it would almost seem that our very nature which is sinful and gives us the ability to freely choose good or evil, allows us a type of freewill that God himself doesn't have. Is that possible?
I have a headache now.
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14 comments:
I think the premise is flawed. It assumes we can judge the actions of God or determine that His actions are righteous or unrighteous. In saying that God can do this or can't do that, we are attempting to impose our (flawed) knowledge of His nature on His behavior. It simply isn't possible. It makes a nice discussion topic, but humanity's finite logic will never understand God's infinite logic, and to say that God can't or isn't able to do a particular thing is an example of man's hubris.
This is particularly clear in the Old Testament. For example, I am horrified when I read that God ordered the Jews to completely slaughter other tribes and kingdoms to the last man, woman and child. From my perspective, I find this repugnant. Other people do, also, some going so far as to say that the Old Testament is incorrect and that God wouldn't order genocide. But once again, we're attempting to judge God. We're saying that those actions were wrong and God won't allow or order them, so God must not have ordered them. Yet, apparently God allowed those actions to be written into the Bible. If God didn't want those actions recorded, why doesn't He, the all-powerful being who created the universe, have them removed? There are certainly enough people down here who claim to hear Him directly.
We spend a lot of time attempting to understand the infinite, which is very funny when you look at string theory and quantum mechanics and all the other attempts to explain the origin of the universe or why we are here. (And if you thought the Big Bang was it, you will be greatly surprised to discover that most of what you thought science proved about the origin of everything is infinitely more complicated. Our best minds still don't understand it. M-theory [good grief, look it up!] is opening the universe to us, but what we don't know still infintely overwhelms what we do know.) My point is that we are children, barely taking baby steps in knowledge of the universe. What inflated opinions we must have of ourselves to attempt to judge God's actions!
God is not a product of human reasoning, and human reasoning can't explain Him. Does this mean that we are supposed to dumbly follow Him? Maybe. The Bible is filled with examples of people doing bizarre things for God (blowing those trumpets outside a walled city, a prophet walking through a city naked, refusing to defend one's self at a trial when the outcome will lead to a horrible death on a cross, etc.). However, I think He gave us minds, and He wants us to use those minds to serve Him better.
By the way, I can't find any verses in the Bible that say God knows the future. Does anyone have any references for that?
As I've thought about this, I realized it's a variation of this old saw: "Can God create a rock so heavy that He can't lift it?"
One of my basic premisis for my belief is:
God does not violate God's law.
Did God have freewill when create the laws he follows?
I do not know.
Did he know what those laws would result in for all things happening in the furture. It seems that within the parameters of "freewill" allowed under the laws, yes he would have.
We are seemingly restricted by God's laws but not confined.
Here's a good article that talks about such questions.
Can God Create a Rock So Heavy He Can't Lift It? - Can God Truly Be Omnipotent?
by Rich Deem
The topic of omnipotence (the ability of God to do anything, i.e., God is all-powerful) is frequently cited by atheists as proof that the God of the Bible cannot exist. The claim has been made that if there is anything that God cannot do, then God cannot be omnipotent and, therefore, does not exist.
Is the God of the Bible omnipotent?The word "omnipotent" is never used in the Bible, but has been inferred primarily by one of God's Hebrew titles, "Shadday," which is most often translated "almighty."(1) However, the Bible never claims that God can do all things. In fact, the Bible makes a point that there are things that God cannot do. The Bible says that God cannot commit sin.(2) God cannot lie.(3) Therefore, biblical omnipotence does not mean that God can do all things. God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy character. However, God can do anything that He determines to do. This is a true meaning of omnipotence - the ability to do anything that one sets out to do.
Specific arguments against omnipotenceSome of the arguments against omnipotence are plain silly and stupid. Can God create a spherical triangle? Saying that omnipotence requires the ability to do logically impossible things is stupid. God cannot turn truth into a lie. If humans define a triangle as a two dimensional object formed by the intersection of three lines, it makes no sense to ask if God could make one that was spherical. When one says that God is all-powerful, one means that God is able to accomplish all that He desires to do. Even an all-powerful being cannot do what is impossible by definition. God can do many things that are humanly impossible. However, there are some things that even an all-powerful being cannot do.
Can God create a rock He cannot lift? Since an all-powerful being will always be able to accomplish whatever He sets out to do, it is impossible for an all-powerful being to fail. The above atheistic argument is arguing that since God is all-powerful He can do anything - even fail. This is like saying that since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful. Obviously, this is absurd. An all-powerful being cannot fail. Therefore, God can create a rock of tremendous size, but, since He is all-powerful, He will always be able to lift it. The ability to fail is not a part of omnipotence.
Could God think of a time when He was not omnipotent? If He can't think of it, He isn't omnipotent, but if He does think of it then there was a time when He wasn't omnipotent? This question is quite similar to the rock question above. The answer, of course, is that God can never think of a time when He wasn't omnipotent. God has always been omnipotent. His inability to contradict His divine character does not mean that He isn't omnipotent.
Conclusion: The atheist distorts the biblical definition of omnipotence in order to "prove" that God cannot exist. Contrary to their claims, omnipotence does not include the ability to do things that are, by definition, impossible. Neither does omnipotence include the ability to fail. By defining omnipotence as requiring one to have the ability to fail, atheists have defined omnipotence as being impossible. Of course, an omnipotent God would never fail.
These kinds of arguments are clearly illogical and even silly, although they are commonly used by inexperienced atheists. Most intelligent atheists have dropped these kinds of arguments long ago.
References
(1)Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions:
shadday (Strong's H7706)
almighty, most powerful
Shaddai, the Almighty (of God)
Part of Speech: noun masculine deity
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7703
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2333
(2) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (James 1:13)
(3) in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, (Titus 1:2)
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/rock.html
Hey everyone, MJC here.
Well, I have to say I don't think my mom explained it 100% what I was going at so here's a better explaination of the paradox:
First of all, we have two principles of God that we assume to be true:
1. God is infallable.
2. God knows everything that was, is, and things to come.
If God knows whats going to happen he already knows what he's going to do. If He chooses to do otherwise, He must have been wrong, thus He is is confined to do what He already knew He was going to do, so as to maintain His infablity. Also, if God is All-Good, He doesn't have to option to choose to do evil. I suppose it could be said that He COULD do evil, He just chooses not to, but does He really CHOOSE not to, or does He just HAVE to so that He maintain infablity?
I wasn't suggesting the "Can God create a rock so large He cannot lift it?" paradox. The article mentioned if God can do anything doesn't that mean He can fail, too? Thats not the question. The question is that to maintain divinity He couldn't fail, but if He already knew exactly what He was going to do, He had no choice but to do it.
An argument against this might be that He made the choice, He simply knew what He was going to choose before He choose it. Well, no. Then it's not a choice. If God knows all, which the Bible says He does, that would include things to come. So, He doesn't have to stop and plan things out, He already knew what was going to happen.
So, I think that more accurately describes my question...
MJC
MJC, where does the Bible say that God knows all? Where does it say that He knows the future? Even better, where does it say that He is infallible? People commonly accept all three of those, but what is the basis for such things? People used to commonly accept the sun revolved around the earth, but that in no way made the sun do so. Likewise our assumptions about God in no way forces Him to conform to them.
However, I am confused as to what you are asking and/or arguing. Are you asking if God has free will or are you supporting the position that He doesn't?
When I was talking to your mother earlier, she asked me whether I believe God knows the future. My answer is that I believe He knows all possible futures. I started to bore her with physics naturally, talking about how M-theory postulates that an infinite number of universes form out of countless singularities and thus an infinite number of variations to our particular universe are created and are still being created, possibly right here but we are unaware of these changes because our past changes with each variation. (No, this isn't science fiction, and no, I'm not making it up.) Fortunately she didn't hang up on me before I reached my point, which was that I believe God knows all our possible futures, but we get to choose out of those possible futures what our future will be.
So let's look at whether God has free will. Your contention is -- I think -- that because He knows everything, He already knows His decisions so there is no way He can chose anything other than what He already knows He chose. Is that correct?
Other way of putting that is that His knowledge of the future determines His present. In other words, God can't change His mind. Yet offhand, I know a couple of places in the Bible where God did change His mind, or better put, He made a different decision in response to the prayers of His followers. How can we reconcile this with the idea that He knows the future? Was He just playing with Abraham like a giant toddler with His toys? Or could it be that He knows all possible futures and chose another one? I believe the second one more approximates what we know of God.
Of course, I have to wonder at the relevance of the question. If He does or doesn't have free will, it doesn't change anything in regard to us -- unless we are going to use that in a discussion of determinism/free will in man, and your mom said she didn't want to discuss that
MJC, to understand God's omni potence, presesence, understanding, knowledgableness, etc. you have to try to step out of human time and sequence. Time and sequence are human contructs we impose on our attempt to picture the un-pictuable. God is "I Am". Conceive of a "I Am Now" with no before, no after, and if you can see it then you are beginning to understand . The Alpha and the Omega are all contained in the Singularity of I Am Now.
All these "Omni's" are jargon. Yet, don't stop trying to understand the un-understandable. You might be susprised some day.
I was wondering if maybe our definitons of freewill are different or not adequate for what we're trying to figure out and while I was wondering that, I found this blog. It did an excellent job of defining the different kinds of freewill and I think it deserves a serious look.
http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2006/01/does-god-have-free-will.html
Read philochristos,too biological, too anthropomorphic in the models.
Tech, as for the rock and God, if God is in and of the matter of the rock and the energy there in as well, then even if the rock was googleplex in size all that would be needed is, "let there be light".
Boom, there goes the rock, or so the story goes.
Reality Check:
Just for the record, the term "Free Will" does not appear anywhere in the Bible.
Random thoughts:
I judge the O.T. to be flawed. That is way different from "judging God"!
My understanding of God's Godness is that while God can do anything God damn well pleases, God chooses NOT to in dealing with us. God, by definition, is not limited by anything, especially not our comprehension.
So, the question is not "Can God so (fill in the blank)," but rather, "Will God do (fill in the blank)?"
The difference makes all the difference. One is based on ability; the other is based on Love and promises.
Re, "If God knows whats going to happen he already knows what he's going to do."
I think Tech addressed this. I don't buy it, either. It does assume a linear and "If ... then ..." sequence -- "logic," if you will -- that may be something humans have just totally made up in their effort to understand God.
Kinda like we did in an effort to understand ourselves.
"Cogito ergo sum" starts in the mind of humankind. It is not deduced from outside humankind, I don't think.
"Deus est esse ergo Deus est esse" -- that is, "God is being, therefore God is being," which is kind of a third-party way of assenting to God's self-description, "I am that I am." Idn't it?
I am beginning to feel like Abe Lincoln and the Beaver and the Diver in the Rozereum ads.
http://media.rozerem.com/RozeremTVspot.m4v
We miss you.
I am beginning to feel like Lincoln and the Beaver and the Diver in the Rozareum ads.
We miss you.
Thank you, Drlobojo, that's very kind of you to say. I'll try to get this blog back on track.
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